Talk:Shinra Tensei
Name I do not believe that the translation "God Conquers the Heavens" is accurate. "神羅天征" is made up of the kanji for god, lightweight fabric or clothing, the last one is subjuigation, however the 2nd to last is NOT heaven, it's Deva. The 2nd to last kanji is likely a reference to the Deva path that uses the technique. Translating this as God Conquers the Heavens is like as others have pointed out, translating the Deva path as the Heaven Path. In the absense of any good translation we should stick with the romaji in this case. I don't want another case like Kira Hachi where we put out a false translation and people start to take it as fact. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Nov 9, 2008 @ 14:58 (UTC) :I'd like to chime in here. *天 does translate into Heaven, or Sky. However because the Japanese love to make their own language difficult, I have yet to find a place where Deva even exists in the Japanese language but I can say that "ten" can mean as many things as the number 10 to cultivating rice fields, but thats a whole different story in and of itself. *With the annoyingness of the above left out, I can safely say without a fraction of a doubt, that 神=God. Or Divinity. Or Lord. Or Goddess. Or Deity. Regardless, it still means God, so that part is correct. *With 征 meaning as many as Conquering, subjugate, and everything like that the combined 天征 does mean Heaven Conquering/Sky Conquering.--TheUltimate3 15:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC) :After doing a stupid amount of research and hunting, 神羅天征 is indeed the correct kanji found in the manga. It's already been established that 神=God. 羅 can mean Thin Silk, Range, and Net. Completely dropping Think Silk out of the mix as it has almost zero relevance to the attack, that leaves Range and Net. 天 Directly translated means Heaven or Sky. Given the use of God, Heaven is most plausible. 征 means conquering or subjugate. Both of which are basically the same so they are really interchangeable. Thus 神羅天征 can translate into God's Range Conquers Heaven, or God's Net Subjugates Heaven.--TheUltimate3 15:48, 9 November 2008 (UTC) :Please allow me to share my take on this jutsu name. :First, means "god" or "kami". This was already established. :Second, means "heaven," "divine," or "Deva". This was also already established. :Third, means "to conquer" or "to subjugate". This was also already established. :Now, we get to the most difficult part. . This can means "silk" or "gauze" as was already established. However, this kanji has another meaning. It's a common abbreviation of the word . Mara is a demon from Buddhist mythology. He tried to tempt the Gautama Buddha with his daughters. Since then, his name has become synonymous for "an obstacle to Buddhist practise" (and as such for the male reproductive organ ^^). :So in my eyes, the name Shinra Tensei would mean something like "Divine Subjugation of Those Hindering God". :However, I must say that it's a difficult kanji to translate. There is a possibility that Kishimoto is planning on explaining it, however. Gaara's name also ends in 羅 and his name was explained quite clearly. --ShounenSuki 18:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC) :Oh why does he keep doing these kind of things?!--TheUltimate3 22:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC) ::That... doesn't sound good... Should I be apologising? --ShounenSuki 23:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC) :..huh? I was tlaking about Kishimoto. Why does he make translating his work so difficult. Is it Japanese? Yes it is, until it has 4 different meanings. Then it depends ont he character. Or until I want it o be close to a different language as possible, and thus I'm going to use words from Bhuddist. That makes sense...T_T he makes my head hurt.--TheUltimate3 23:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC) ::Phew... I was afraid I did something wrong ^^ ::Anyway, Kishimoto doesn't decide on these names for foreigners. He wants them to sound good for Japanese people. To them, the 羅 kanji has a clear Buddhist connotation. There are dozens of Buddhists terms and names that use this kanji (mostly for its pronunciation). Since Pain has that whole Buddhism theme, it isn't really surprising his jutsu have Buddhist themes as well. ::The average Japanese reader would look at the name of this jutsu and see a cool-sounding name vaguely meaning God-Buddhist Connection-Heaven-Subjugation. This probably isn't how Kishimoto thought of the name, but it's how his readers will see it. ::Hell, for all we know he might actually have named this jutsu after the Shinra Company from FFVII. After all, Kishimoto loves video games. ::I wonder if Japanese people have the same problems with the spells from Harry Potter... --ShounenSuki 23:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Why do we keep translating 天 as Deva? He used it once in "Deva realm," it doesn't mean every single use of it pertinent to Pain is going to be Deva. Also, are we sure that the Konoha-destroying Shinra Tensei is the same thing that Pain was using to draw Kakashi towards/away from him? :Where is 天 translated as Deva outside of the context of Pain's "Deva Realm"? It definitely isn't translated as such in Shinra Tensei, seeing that we haven't decided on a translation yet. :Why wouldn't the Konoha-destroying Shinra Tensei be the same as the one Pain used against Kakashi? They're both called Shinra Tensei and work the same. There is no reason to assume they are different. You might as well ask if the Kage Bunshin Naruto used during his fight with Sasuke at the Valley of the End were the same as the ones he used against Kimimaro. --ShounenSuki 17:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC) Name revised The introduction of Banshō Ten'in gave me a new clue to the intended meaning behind the name Shinra Tensei. I thought I'd share my thoughts here. There's a Japanese idiom that's heavily tied in with Buddhism: . It has a variant written as 神羅万象 (with the kanji for replaced with the kanji for ). The first part of this idiom was used in . This would give it the meaning of something like "Heavenly Subjugation by the All-covering God". The second part was used in . This would mean something like "Heavenly Pull of All Creation". --ShounenSuki 01:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC) :Pretty clearly the root, but I think we can improve the wording. I'd suggest "Attraction" instead of "Pull" (it's the same kanji used in the description of "attraction forces and repulsion forces"). Maybe "All-covering God" to "Omnipresent God" or "Ubiquitous God". Or maybe something along the lines of "Heavenly Subjugation by God Above" and "Heavenly Attraction of Everything Beneath", a little bit less literal, but more clearly drawing a connection between the two halves of the yojijukugo. Or just "Heavenly Subjugation by God Above All" / "Heavenly Attraction of All Creation" -- more literal, still a link, but less directly. FF-Suzaku 05:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC) ::Well, there are always better ways to translate a name. I only used the wording above to keep as literal and as close to the most basic and neutral meaning of the kanji and idioms behind the name. ::Anyway, the "pull" in Bashō Ten'in is indeed the same as kanji as used in . I think I'm against using "god above" and "everything beneath" though. I feel like that implies a monotheistic god. --ShounenSuki (talk | ) 08:20, 13 February 2009 (UTC) :Pain could be consider a monotheistic god. /shrug Just saying.--TheUltimate3 13:10, 13 February 2009 (UTC) ::All-covering God would imply the same sort of omnipresence, though; above is also synonymous with "covering" and beneath is synonymous with "being covered by", though I admit it carries a slightly different vibe. FF-Suzaku 21:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC) wouldn't shinra(神羅) by itself mean "everything covered by god", so wouldn't shinra bansho(神羅万象) mean "everything covered by god and ten thousand things"? (talk) 16:57, 27 June 2009 (UTC) In Chinese there is an idiom called 包罗万象。http://dictionary.reverso.net/chinese-english/%E7%BD%97 The kanji and Chinese characters are related, so it also makes sense in Chinese. For these 4 character idioms, usually there are 2 subjects, which have some sort of relation or comparison, in this case God and Conquer. The other 2 characters are there to help expand and provide description of the 2 nouns, 羅 meaning the range of the first subject 神, and 天 describing the the scale of the conquest/attack/war 征. So by means of condensing the character meanings, it can mean "Godly Annihilation on Heaven's scale", or simply put as "Godly Annihilation" if you leave out the figurative descriptions. Godly and Heavenly means the same thing right... Does that make sense? Almighty Subjugation So...where does this translation come from?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:19, 11 April 2009 (UTC) :Beats me, but I do think it's about time we put something of a translation in. The same goes for Banshō Ten'in and Chibaku Tensei. --ShounenSuki (talk | ) 16:03, 11 April 2009 (UTC) ::I added a hidden message in its place for all three articles because I saw it was being changed a lot. Until we have a proper translation I think we should just leave it blank. ¥ Super Novice Talk 2 Me ¥ 16:06, 11 April 2009 (UTC) Rinnegan Tech Someone should add this tech to the list of Rinnegan kekkei genkai techs. As well as Bansho Tenin and Chibaku Tensei, too. Dumb question, maybe... D'you think 'Divine Judgment' would be an accurate translation? I ask 'cuz I'm not sure.--Reikson (talk) 18:36, 15 August 2009 (UTC) :Not in th slightest. Should be mentioned above somewhere.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 18:38, 15 August 2009 (UTC) Viz released the chapter where Pain destroys Konoha. They translate Shinra Tensei as Almighty Push and Bansho Ten'in as Universal Pull. Though I doubt these are accurate. ~NOTASTAFF Ryun Uchiha (Ten Tailed Fox, Getsueikirite-taichou) (talk) 06:24, November 9, 2009 (UTC) :Old post here... They're simplified, but quite accurate. Especially considering that the Japanese names are short, but a literal English translation would be quite long and wordy (especially in terms of matching voice acting). Almighty and Universal are actually very apt translations for Shinra and Banshō, though Tensei and Ten'in are more accurately conveyed as "Heavenly Subjugation" and "Heavenly Attraction". <.< The only reason Viz does that is to prevent any religious allusions from being placed in the americanized version of the show. Yeah, because when the uncut mentions "Buddha" every five episodes and says "What the Hell" that is totally not having anything to do with alluding to religion. Its the best translation and push/pull are the only short and simple words to describe the technique's effect itself without making the lip movements way off. In Storm 2, the lips match just fine when he does it, though Bansho Ten'in wasn't heard itself. Anime Debut? Did it really appear in a filler arc? Cause now I'm questioning this. Or is this a mistake? Naruto Episode 157: Run! The Curry of Life --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 14:37, May 6, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi That's a filler episode. From Part 1. Before Pain or most of the Akatsuki even debuted. In other words, impossible.--[[User:Kagimizu|'Kagi'mizu]]-[[User talk:Kagimizu|'Seeya' 'round]]~ 14:46, May 6, 2010 (UTC) ::That's what I thought. So it's a typo that needs to be fixed. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 14:46, May 6, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi Game Debut Add it in the infobox. The game debut is Naruto Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 2. ~ UchihaClanLeader(talk) June 11 2010 Page Picture Was the picture of Kakashi being repelled by a small-scale Shinra Tensei changed so that the technique could be illustrated up-close? Otherwise I think the original image works just fine. Magatama90 (talk) 09:52, June 12, 2010 (UTC) six-tails why isn't it mentioned that the only thing shinra tensei couldn't push back was naruto in his six-tails transformation? -- (talk) 20:37, July 13, 2010 (UTC) :Because it could push Naruto back. Naruto just grounded himself to stop himself from actually going anywhere. ''~SnapperT '' 21:57, July 13, 2010 (UTC) Gravity? How could it be gravity? I thought it was just an analogy to gravity, not gravity itself. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:15, July 24, 2010 (UTC) :Talk:Deva Path#Abilities :I give myself three internet bux for taking three internet wīks to notice this question. ''~SnapperT '' 08:24, August 14, 2010 (UTC) is this the jutsu pain uses to fly ? (talk) 08:52, August 31, 2010 (UTC) User of Shinra Tensei In the users section, it says Nagato with the Deva Path. Should that last part be omitted because he can do it without the path and was seen doing so.--Susanoo11 (talk) 03:15, December 26, 2010 (UTC) Dojutsu or just jutsu? Has it ever mentioned if shinra tensei is from nagato's rinengan or just a jutsu ?Can we know what it is? --Madman361 (talk) 22:50, February 6, 2011 (UTC) We.... We should not noted that Nagato use this technique consecutively In Chapter 550? First to used to get rid of the black flames of Amaterasu and after that use a large-scale Shinra Tensei to attack Naruto, Bee and Itachi --thedasilva1 (talk) 09:16, 3 August 2011 (UTC) :It only takes five seconds to use again. Its obvious that more enough time had passed before he used it again.--''Deva '' 01:49, August 4, 2011 (UTC) infobox is screwed it says that sakura is the only user. obviously wrong on many levels-- (talk) 04:43, October 20, 2011 (UTC) Check it again, some idiot crap is adding false information in some articles. Don't worry he'll be blocked soon by Omnibender or Jacce. [[User:Aditya sasuke|'akz!']] (talk | Images) 04:45, October 20, 2011 (UTC) madara's rinnegan madara use this jutsu to repel naruto's rasensyuriken :Judging from Temari's comment, it was the Blocking Technique Absorption Seal technique. Jacce | Talk | 11:33, October 21, 2011 (UTC) how it can be ? --Jumpjet (talk) 11:35, October 21, 2011 (UTC) :After Madara activated his Rinnegan, Temari says he absorbed it. Preta Path is the only ability that absorbs stuff that we know of. If it were Shinra Tensei it'd look more like chapter 433, page 16.--Cerez365™ 12:08, October 21, 2011 (UTC) :@Jumpjet You were saying yourself that he used one of Deva paths power. Why wouldn't he be able to use Preta's as well. Jacce | Talk | 12:29, October 21, 2011 (UTC) Deva was shown to repel stuff, this looked like absorbtion thus Preta. --Elveonora (talk) 16:27, December 12, 2011 (UTC) was the deva path flying when he used almighty push on konoha-- (talk) 05:33, March 22, 2013 (UTC) The 5 second time limit thing for Shinra Tensei, I believe was only because he was using it through a dead body via the six paths of pain technique. I do not think there is the same time limit when NAGATO uses it. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 15:01, July 2, 2013 (UTC) :If there wasn't a limite for this technique, the user would be indestructible, Kishimoto created this technique with this disadvantage because all techniques must have a weak spot. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:32, July 2, 2013 (UTC) I never said there wouldn't be a limit, there is a time limit between every jutsu, even if only 1 second. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:41, July 2, 2013 (UTC) Shinra Tensei requirement. If I recall correctly, the fourth databook says to have access to Shinra Tensei one has to have the Rinnegan and have mastery over all types of chakra. Shouldn't the entry include this? --Jingo12 (talk) 21:22, June 3, 2015 (UTC) Indeed. The databook states the following: :あらゆる性質のチャクラを自在に操る者のみが可能にする、“輪廻眼”の結晶とも呼べる術だ。 :A technique that can certainly be called the "Rinnegan's" crystal; only those who can freely manipulate all natures of chakra have the potential to use it. However, that doesn't mean that Shinra Tensei is made up of all chakra natures or anything. • Seelentau 愛 議 01:21, July 8, 2015 (UTC)